Episode 182: Avoid These 3 Costly Mistakes When Hiring an Ad Agency w/ Zach Spuckler
In this no-fluff, straight-talking episode of Small Business PR, host Gloria Chou sits down with seasoned ads expert and agency owner Zach Spuckler of Heart, Soul & Hustle to answer one of the most common (and costly) questions small business owners face: “Should I hire a marketing or ads agency—or do it myself?”
With over 10 years of experience, millions spent on ads, and hundreds of clients under his belt, Zach breaks down exactly when it makes sense to hire help—and when it’s a waste of money. From red flags to look for, to knowing your numbers, to building a business that’s sustainable without giving up control, this episode is a must-listen for any entrepreneur navigating growth.
7 Smart Marketing Truths Every Small Business Owner Should Know Before Hiring an Agency
Why most small businesses shouldn’t hire an agency too early
The biggest red flags to watch for when hiring a marketing agency
The difference between traffic, leads, and sales (and why it matters)
How to identify your most profitable, high-ROI tasks
Why “doing all the things” is a dangerous myth in small biz culture
How to know if you’re financially ready to outsource your marketing
What it means to build a long-term brand—not just chase viral trends
Hiring a marketing or ads agency can be a powerful move—but only if your business is truly ready. As Zach Spuckler shared, the right agency can amplify what’s already working, but the wrong one can drain your time, budget, and momentum.
Before you sign any contracts, make sure you have a proven offer, a repeatable sales system, and a clear understanding of your numbers. And if you're not there yet? That’s okay—there’s strength in DIY marketing when it’s done with strategy and intention.
Whether you're scaling up, refining your marketing, or just getting started, this episode gives you the tools to make smarter decisions and avoid common pitfalls.
Product Businesses! Download my free HOW TO GET INTO A GIFT GUIDE/PRODUCT ROUND UP roadmap for free HERE to get more sales and traffic to your site this season.
If you want to land your first feature for free without any connections, I want to invite you to watch my PR Secrets Masterclass, where I reveal the exact methods thousands of bootstrapping small businesses use to hack their own PR and go from unknown to being a credible and sought-after industry expert. Register now at www.gloriachoupr.com/masterclass.
Resources Mentioned:
Join the PR Secrets Masterclass
Join the Small Biz PR Pros Facebook Group
DM the word “PITCH” to us on Instagram to get a pitching freebie https://www.instagram.com/gloriachoupr
Connect with Gloria Chou on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/gloriaychou
Join Gloria Chou's PR Community https://www.facebook.com/groups/428633254951941
Learn more about Zach Spuckle
Zach’s Website – Heart, Soul & Hustle
Follow Zach on Instagram @ZachSpuckler
Additional Resources:
Listen On Your Favorite Podcast Platform
Follow & Review on Apple Podcasts
Are you following my podcast? If you’re not, I want to encourage you to do that today so you don’t miss any future episodes!
I would also appreciate it if you would leave me a review! Reviews help me make sure I am providing the content that you need! Plus, you will be entered to WIN a 1:1 pitch writing session with me where I will help you find your press-worthy angle! Click here to review, select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review”.
TRANsCRIPT
00:00:00 Gloria: What's up, Small Business Heroes? Welcome back to Small Business PR where we make business marketing and PR super accessible for the everyday small business owner. And the reason why I have my personal friend, Zach Spuckler here is because listen, you've heard me say so many times on this podcast, maybe a little bit too much about how much I don't like agencies or that agencies are not for everyone.
00:00:20 Gloria: Well, today I actually have an owner of an agency who has actually worked for over 10 years, spent millions and millions of dollars on ads with clients, worked with hundreds of clients to tell you what you should and shouldn't do if you are thinking about hiring agency. So welcome to the show, Zach.
00:00:33 Zach: Hey, Gloria. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
00:00:36 Gloria: So I think a lot of people might be a little bit like, why is she having someone who is an ads agency? Because I'm always like, quote unquote, hating on them. But I think this conversation will be super illuminating because I think it's not like it could be all those things. You could have an agency, but go into it with the right expectations without spending a lot of money. I think I first want to introduce you. Can you tell us a little bit about your experience before we kind of get into the do's and don'ts of hiring agency?
00:01:01 Zach: Absolutely. So thank you so much for having me. My name is Zach Speckler. Our company is Heart and Soul and Hustle and we're a small Facebook and Instagram ads agency and education company. So we have an arm of our business where we run ads for people, agency, and then we have an arm of our business where for people who aren't quite ready for an agency but know they want to be advertising, can tap into a membership model that we use.
00:01:22 Zach: And really what I was so excited because I know we talked about like the agency do's and the don'ts. And you even said before we start recording, you're like, oh, I know you run an agency. So should we talk about not hiring a agency? And I love talking about this stuff because we have worked with so many people over the years. Like you said, we've been doing this for multiple years. I've been running my current company for 10 years and we've always had some element of agency or consulting work for specifically Facebook and Instagram ads. But I have seen and been in rooms with other agency owners, people who have hired agencies.
00:01:58 Zach: A lot of people come to me and say, you're not the first agency we've thought about hiring or we've worked with an agency before and it didn't work. And I think there's such a powerful conversation to be had about agencies are in my opinion, neither good or bad. They're a tool. And yes, you can have an agency that's bad. Yes, you can have an agency that's good. But if you go in hiring an agency for your product sales, your email, your marketing, your organic social or your paid social. You go in with the wrong expectations or you go in thinking it is this magic pill. You're kind of releasing control of your business in a sense, right?
00:02:39 Zach: And so I've been doing this for, like I said, for 10 years, we have hundreds of people in our membership, hundreds of people who work with us clients. And I know we're going to talk about this, but I always tell people your agency is there to amplify what you're doing. And so we say that especially because we're an ad agency, we have our running thing that we say, which is like ads amplify, they amplify what's working and they amplify what's not working. And agencies are very similar in a sense that you have to know what you're getting into.
00:03:08 Zach: A lot of agencies, if I can be blunt, are great at sales and not great at deliverability, or delivery, I should say. And that's really common. And so what I will talk about today, I know, because we said the expectations before we started, is we're gonna talk a little bit about agency red flags, but I just wanna encourage you that like, I am an agency owner who loves having the agency. We max out at about 10 clients as of right now, we're very boutique style. And we also know that we can't solve everyone's problem and we turn people away and we tell people no.
00:03:42 Zach: And we have, you know, a waiting list and we don't overextend ourselves, but there's things that you can be asking in the process if you think you're at the point for an agency to really make sure you get the right people in your corner. And so I know we're going to talk also about like, what should your agency be doing? And it's going to be a really fun conversation. So that's a little about me a little about my philosophy on agencies, love them, hate them. I think they have a place. They're just a tool. And when you understand just like if you were to buy, and I'm not a handy person, so this might be totally wrong.
00:04:14 Zach: But just if you were to buy a socket wrench, you wouldn't just go, I need a socket wrench. It will solve all my problems. You would need to know what size socket wrench you need. You'd need to know what fitting to use. You'd need to know what you're trying to build, right? You have to have this big picture conversation about yes, it's a tool and what job is this tool best suited for?
00:04:33 Gloria: Ooh, you said so much there. I mean, that in and of itself is like a full thing, but let's unpack that a little bit. You said that they are either good or bad and they amplify what's working or they can amplify what's not working. So I think a lot of times we do as business owners, we throw our hands in the air we're like, this is so overwhelming because we're not marketers. So we want to pay someone, whether it's a PR marketing agency to solve all of our problems. So you're saying stop, like don't do that. So are you saying that we should only think about working with an agency when we have a certain proven offer and a reputable, like a repeatable way to get clients without an agency?
00:05:04 Zach: Yes. So in short, yes. And my longer answer is you do not want to relinquish the control of your decisions to someone else because it's not working. Right. And so this is very common. We see this with entrepreneurs at every level, whether you've been doing this for 10 years or one year, whether you sell a widget or a service, how often I see this, especially with people who sell multiple products or variations of products, soap makers, candle makers, especially handmakers will go, what do you think of this idea? And that feels very like simple at its face value, right?
00:05:41 Zach: The problem with this question, and I promise this is related to the agency, but the problem with this question is often it's asked to the wrong people. And so let's just use a really specific example. You know, let's say we know Bob, he sells soap. He's making this new brand and he asks his mom who has never bought soap from him. She loves his products. Maybe he gives them to her. She's never paid him. She's never gone through a formal customer process. She's someone who knows him and he says, I'm going to make Halloween soap. And she says, oh my gosh, I love it. Great idea.
00:06:11 Zach: Well, he makes all this soap. Well, then it turns out he didn't know this, but his target market actually really wants very specific Halloween themed Bath and Body Works stuff. Right. And it's not to say the Bath and Body Works is better or worse than a small business. That's a whole can of worms we can get into. But it's like, maybe your target market doesn't shop online for this season. They like to go. They want to touch. They want to feel. They want to smell.
00:06:35 Zach: They want a specific scent that they've been buying every year. And so in that exact same vein, what I like to tell people is your agency does not know you, your business or your customers the way you do. Can you build a relationship where they do? Absolutely. But when you get on the phone with an agency for a sales call or a sign up call or an onboarding call, they don't know your people the way you know your people. And so when you are asking an agency, what should we do?
00:07:03 Zach: I argue that you're having that same conversation. You're basically asking your mom, what do we do? The argument that we validate in our head is, yeah, but these people are experts. They know what they're doing. They know what's best for me. No one knows what's best for you the way you know what's best for you. Because whether it is the lifestyle you want your business to have, your margins, your costs, no one is going to have the same picture of your business from a financial health perspective, an inventory health perspective, deliverable shipping costs the way you are.
00:07:36 Zach: Most agencies, especially in the ad space, they want to know cost of goods sold, what can you pay to acquire a customer? They're operating on numbers. They're not operating on lifestyle, what you have, how many employees you have. Their goal is sell, sell, sell, sell, sell. So when you talk to an agency, yes, you want to know the direction you're going. I like to think of it as if you were flying a plane, I want to copilot. I'm not looking to replace the pilot. And most people are in a commercial phase of their business. You're on a commercial flight and you're looking for a private pilot. You're looking for someone to fly your private jet.
00:08:10 Zach: And that's the conversation that you need to be having with yourself. It's like, am I handing over full control of my business outcomes to an agency because I don't want to, I don't think I can. I have internal beliefs about what that means for my success and what's possible for me or am I bringing somebody in that's going to partner with me to build the vision I have? Most agencies can scale your numbers. Most agencies are not looking at the day to day operations. And that's fine. That's not their job. I'm not saying that's bad. You are.
00:08:43 Zach: And so when you come into an agency, if you are relinquishing the control, relinquishing the vision, relinquishing the plan and not co-creating, that to me is where you get into trouble. So a big red flag for me is when I... And somebody talks to me they say, well, this agency said they're going to do everything and they're going to get the sales because I always jokingly say, well, if and it's a little different in e-commerce because you have the proprietary product in some sense, but especially like in the space that I do a lot of work and we work with like digital products or services.
00:09:14 Zach: We have e-commerce experience too, but we have a lot of people that are like digital products. Well, this person's going to create my pages and create my products and do the photos and do all of these things. And I always jokingly tell people. Look, if somebody could come into your business and take a product and just turn into this million dollar seller, which is often the sales pitch in some capacity, why would they not just do that themselves? Right.
00:09:38 Zach: If it's so easy to just take a product and sell it to the million dollar mark, why does this person have an agency? I will tell you the reason we have an agency is one, we're great at what we do, but two, I have an education arm of my business and I like to be current. My primary goal in running my agency is not revenue though, obviously it generates revenue. I'm not going to sit here and be like, we don't make any money from our agency. We do it out of the goodness of our hearts, right? We make money, we make decent money, but more money comes from the other side of the business.
00:10:07 Zach: We're doing it to stay current. We're doing it to be hands on. We're doing it to be in the trenches and see what's working. So second thing I would be looking for in your agency is like, are they trying new things? Are they staying current? Are they staying up to date or are they putting your vision into their process? So part of this conversation is also if you don't know where you're going, your agency is 100 % in 80 % of cases going like that statistic 100 % of the time, 80 % of the time, but they're going to put you in this is our process. So we want to do XYZ. We're going to plug you into our process, right?
00:10:43 Zach: Again, not nothing inherently wrong with that, but you want to have a conversation where first thing we were saying, if you're not co-creating and saying, if they say we want to sell 100 units every week and you're like, we only have the capacity for 80. If you're not co-creating and you don't know your vision and you don't know your business, you're just going to go, that sounds amazing. Who doesn't want to sell a hundred products a week, right?
00:11:05 Zach: But when you co-create, can say, hey, I actually want to slow that down a little. We're at 80. Here's what it takes to get to a hundred from an inventory, staffing, shipping, kind of cost of goods sold situation, you need to be able to have those conversations. So very long answer to a short question is if you don't have your foundation in place, don't hire an agency because they amplify. If you're having problems selling one or two products organically, you're not going to hire a social media magician that's going to sell a thousand products a week. Like that doesn't happen. And if it did happen, that's what everyone would do.
00:11:38 Zach: And so my fallback is always if anyone could do what someone is claiming to be able to do, why are more people not doing it? That's always a question that I'm asking through the lens of whenever I'm looking at purchasing a service or a product from someone.
00:11:51 Gloria: Ooh, that is so good. Whatever you guys are doing, whether you're folding laundry or walking dog, you need to come back to this moment because he is breaking it down. And I love how you just took a knife and you just slice this whole thing. It's like, you know, have so many people who come to me and they're like, I don't have time to do this. So like my budget is going towards social media manager ads. And they're like, you know, I don't have time for the important things, which to me is like learning how to write your pitch, right? Cause they're like, it's meant elsewhere.
00:12:18 Gloria: And I can't tell you the number of people who have spent 20, $30,000 on an agency and then realized like, actually I need to be doing this myself. And I've actually learned it from my own business where I actually hired a CMO who, you know, highly recommended like great copywriter, worked with someone in the same industry and she was not able to grow my audience.
00:12:35 Gloria: And the moment I took it back, I started to grow my audience. But then that leads me to the second question is that is also exhausting, right? For us to be doing all of the things. So what can we do if the answer is not to hire?
00:12:47 Zach: So I'm a weirdo in some ways, because I always like to say, like, if you go back 30, 40, 50 years, you go back to 1980, 1990, you wanted to start a business pre-internet, you had to go like to a bank with a business plan, get a loan or in a retail space. Even door to door salesmen had hard costs you to buy your equipment. Like there's always been costs associated with business. And so the barrier is lower. Absolutely. And there are two ways to grow your business. Sweat equity and financial equity. That's just the reality, right?
00:13:18 Zach: We can argue that it's like, well, I don't want to work hard or I want like a lifestyle business. And I don't argue with that. I like have seasons of us all. But I would say 80 % of the time I'm running a laid back business. I don't want to be overstressed. And I know we even talked about this before you hit record like, I'm good with my revenue not going up if my lifestyle is maintained. If you know, it's 2024 and cost, everything is getting crazy. So we are trying to our revenue a little bit to maintain that.
00:13:45 Zach: But my goal is is at its core is a lifestyle maintenance business with growth without sacrificing what's important to me. There are two sides of the coin because you still when you're getting started, like I won't lie to you like, yeah, sometimes it does suck. And I think sometimes we gravitate towards what we want to hear, especially if you are in the online marketing space is like, let it be easy, let it flow. It's like listen, we used to have a e-commerce business where we sold candles. There was nothing easy about being in the basement four days a week, packing two days a week, processing orders, putting shipping labels on like that sucked. I'm not going to lie.
00:14:22 Zach: Like part of it is because that was not in a line business for me. Part of it is because sometimes we do stuff that sucks. That's the name of running a business. We get to trade off that 20 to 30 % of time where it's not glamorous. It's not fun. It is heavy. I don't want to create a month's worth of social media content, but 70 % of the time it's like you are in your purpose. You love your products, you love what you do. get to be on podcasts like this and talk and share and connect with people like I love that side of things.
00:14:46 Zach: And I'm not in this tongue in cheek delusional space where everything has to be great all the time. And if I'm just not smiling 24/7, if you want to get like super meta, it's like there's duality in life, right? You can't have the light without the dark. You can't have the good without the bad. And so I always start there because I do think it is a conversation of like, yes, sometimes it does suck. Sometimes it is heavy. Sometimes it is boring. Sometimes I don't want to shoot a reel or write an email or send a post or do a sales call.
00:15:16 Zach: And that is the nature of what we do 70 % of the time, 80 % of the time. It's great. And that's what I'm focused on. And from a tangible perspective, you don't have to be doing all the things. So this is this even weaves into what we were talking about. The agency is like, no, what's moving the needle? I work with people all the time who are like, I need more page likes on Facebook. I need more page lace on Facebook. And I'll be like, okay, well, how often are you growing your Facebook page?
00:15:42 Zach: And they're like, it's growing, it's great. And I said, well, how often are you getting sales from your Facebook page? And they go, I don't know. I'm like, okay, totally normal, no judgment. And if we don't know if it's contributing to the growth of the business, why are we putting time there? So we need to put things in place to track that. A lot of great agencies have great tracking processes. So I would be asking if you can't do it all and guess what? You can't. What's the highest ROI activity?
00:16:08 Zach: And I'll give a very specific example to this. We record a podcast every week and for the last four months, other than the last like we picked the podcast up two weeks ago, but four months prior to that, we did not record an episode. We counted it one hundred and twenty one days. The podcast went with no updates and our business did fine. It's not to say that podcasting isn't important. We've gotten great reception on the return of the podcast. But I was busy. I was traveling for some pleasure, some business. I had a lot going on. We were releasing new programs and products.
00:16:43 Zach: And I was like, is when I look at the podcast, where is the ROI? And to me, the ROI was in the form of relationships, connection, community, which is important. But I was also in a season where I didn't have the capacity to maintain that. So we made the decision to not record a podcast for two months. It became four and that's the conversation you need to be having is like, what is actually moving the needle? Because a lot of people, and I see this, especially in the physical product spaces, we're doing things that don't grow the business.
00:17:14 Zach: And you are in a unique space where it's like you have the time and financial cost of the product and you have the time and financial cost of the operations and the marketing, right? But you also need to keep in mind some of this stuff doesn't move the needle. So what is essential? What is non-essential and what is profitable. That is the conversation that I like to have with people.
00:17:37 Zach: What is profitable for me? Again, it depends on the season. So this is going to sound counter to what I just said, but we can dig into it is I'm in a season now. And we brought the podcast back because of it, that I'm looking to build deeper relationships and an audience. Audience building is my needle mover right now. And so if you feel like you're doing all the things, remember at its core level, your business operates on three things, right?
00:17:37 Zach: And again, I'm kind of going to table the cost and time of making the product. That's the byproduct in my business. It's delivery. I have to deliver my services, right? But you have those hidden costs. Let's say they're 20, 30 hours a week, even the other 10 hours. Where are you focused? Are you posting on Instagram every day when no one's watching your stories and no one's seeing your Instagram and maybe reels are not your thing, but you keep trying these product reels that don't ever go anywhere and don't lead to sales and how much time are you committing to that?
00:18:34 Zach: We're in a season where audience growth grows us, but it all comes down to traffic leads and sales. How do I get more traffic to my products? How do I get more people giving me their information so I can follow up with them and build a relationship? And how do I convert them to products? So when I'm in a space where I say, I don't know what to do, I go back to the foundational element and I say, how do I get more traffic leads or sales? So for us right now, more traffic is through ads.
00:19:01 Zach: More leads is through ads and more sales is through our promotions. And so that's why we're in this season where I'm trying to build a relationship with traffic. So we brought the podcast back. I'm converting people to leads. We increased our ads budget and I'm trying to convert people to a product. So we're going into a promotion at the end of September. When you look at it that way, it's not a conversation of how do I do all the things? It's a conversation of what moves the needle. What actually gets me more people to my website at the top level?
00:19:28 Zach: More people to give me their name and information because email marketing is huge, especially in e-commerce. And what gives people the push over the edge to buy? That's where I'm having the conversation. You don't have to do all the things because if you say, oh, I've been public like and I see this all the time. So it's no judgment. But people will be like, oh, I'm like starting this new venture. I'm to publish a magazine every week and it's going to feature my products or I'm going to do a catalog. I'm to do all these things. And I'm like, yes. And do you have the time capacity and does it move the needle?
00:19:57 Zach: That's the conversation to ultimately be having. And even with your agency, like how are we driving more traffic leads or sales? If you do hire an agency, that's the conversation. What are we doing that actually leads to a measurable outcome and result?
00:20:11 Gloria: Boom. That's so good. And think a lot of times we put on the lens of, that's what I hear from other gurus. You to grow your page. And so you spend all your money on Instagram, but those might not even be your, your actual bias. Like you actually don't have a big following, but you've made millions upon millions upon millions and a lot of the Titans in the industry who are not the loudest in the voices, you know, in the echo chamber, they have the most profitable businesses.
00:20:35 Gloria: So I really, think the conversation is like, are you playing by someone else's playbook? Or are you really going to do the work to be like, what season of business am I in? And then develop that filter is what I call like, like, there's a lot of like shitty work we have to go through, right? I always say, we have to publish a hundred shitty drafts, which is what Elizabeth Gilbert says, until we get to that good book. So the more you do in the beginning, the more you're going to be like, Oh, this resonates with my audience. I'm going to hire an agency for this specific thing.
00:21:01 Gloria: And so back to the red flags of what you should not do is do not hire an agency. If you don't have a validated, proven offer and a way to get repeatable results. And then if you do want to hire an agency, would you say another red flag is if they do all of the things? Because I always say if they do all the things, they probably don't do anything well. Because let's be honest, if I have a heart issue, I am going to see a cardiologist. I'm not going to see like a general family practitioner.
00:21:25 Zach: To a point. I think some agencies oversell, like I do know a few agencies that do a lot of things well, ask about the team structure. If we get really granular, ask about the team structure. If one person is doing everything, that's a red flag for me. If one person is managing your ads and then they have a social media person and then they have a copywriter and then they have a designer, that doesn't stress me out so much. It also comes with a premium, right? You're talking four or $5,000 plus per month to have that team because you're contracting a team, right?
00:21:55 Zach: So, yes, red flag to me if it's like I'm a team of one, but I'll do everything for you. It's like you have multiple clients because you're an agency or an agency owner. How much of that am I actually getting? That is something. And I don't think it's wrong to ask that question on a sales call. Like, hey, it sounds like you do a lot. How do you maintain that workload with multiple clients? How do you create deliverable results with all of these silos of deliverables? Right.
00:22:21 Zach: You can ask those questions. It's the time to ask those questions, but typically if it's one or two people promising me the world, to me, the red flag is not even that they're doing everything. It's that they're promising this big gain without the price tag. Like if they're like, we do everything and it's $10,000 a month, I'd be like, oh, I buy it. That's worth $10,000 a month for you to do everything and you have a team. If it's one person saying, oh, yeah, for $500 a month, I'll triple your Instagram followers. Red flag, huge red flag for me.
00:22:52 Zach: Not because I don't think they can do it, but because in a 30 to 40 minute sales call, you don't know enough about me. You don't know enough about my business. You're basing my success on your blueprint and your past clients without getting into tell me something. So in that same vein, like, yes, that's a red flag, but really the core, the underlying red flag of that is big promises without full contextual information. That to me is the red flag.
00:23:18 Gloria: So good. So good. What's another red flag? If someone is like because the agencies, all have really great websites and it's really hard to pick.
00:23:26 Zach: Totally. Another red flag for me is this is me personally. So I'll be totally candid about that. It's not an indicator of a bad agency, but somebody who needs me to make a decision right this second. Like if it's, yeah, we need to sign you on right now because we're just so busy. We're and often the pitch is something like this. If you book today on the call, you're going to save acts and we can get you started tomorrow. I once had someone say to me, which was really funny, and I wasn't thinking about it. We had a wait list at one point in time. We still do. We're booked out till about October right now. First of September or fourth of September, we're booked out till about October 30th.
00:24:05 Zach: And somebody was like, can I hire you to start tomorrow? And I was like, I'm sorry, we're booked out till, you know, at that time, mid-October. And she was like, that actually makes me feel better because good people are booked. And I was like, I never thought about that. So when someone says to me, we can start right now if you make the decision right this moment, it says to me, sure, they could be expanding. Yeah, they might have team. But it says to me, one, it's a high pressure situation. I don't want to make an influential business decision in a high pressure situation. I personally want to think about it.
00:24:38 Zach: Sometimes I will sign on a call. Sometimes I won't for services and people. But I want that to be my decision, not theirs. And then the second thing is if they are like we can do it right now, right now, right now. Like front end urgency often in my experience does not equate to back end urgency. If they're quick to sign you, they're often slow to deliver. Again, sweeping generalization. I'm not saying this is everybody, but when we were talking about a team of one or two people who are like, what, like, what do we need to do to get you in right now? That is my least favorite question.
00:25:12 Zach: When someone says to me, that is a red flag for me. When someone says, what would it take for you to sign up today? I'm like, nothing, because you're not hearing me. If we've gotten to the point of that question, when I said I need to sit with this, I need to crunch my numbers, I need to be with my team and you say, well, what would it take to get you to sign up today? It would take an active listener and you're not doing that. So for me, it's a no now. Right. And again, that is me personally. Some people are fine with high pressure sales and can handle themselves just fine. I'm somebody who caves really easy.
00:25:39 Zach: So if I don't set those boundaries going in, I will say yes to someone I don't want to work with. That's me personally. I'm like at my core, I'm a pushover. I'm working on it, but that's who I am. So to me, that's a red flag. When somebody is trying to push me into a contract quickly and efficiently and promising me all these things, that's a red flag.
00:25:57 Gloria: And these contracts are not cheap. it's like because they it's like, you know, for a PR agency is like six months at five grand. Like they don't really need to deliver because they have you locked in. And so--
00:26:07 Zach: They have you locked in. And often you're talking to a salesperson, which again, is not an inherently bad thing, but you're sales professional, the person you talk to for a lot of agencies, especially if the agency has over 20 clients, they typically have a salesperson. When you're talking to a salesperson, their job is not to get you results. Their job is to earn a commission. And if you think through that lens again, I'm not saying it's bad. I'm not saying the model is broken, but I am saying think critically, if this person trying to sign me right now on this day at this time, there's a reason.
00:26:41 Zach: And often, you know, as humans, we are biologically, physiologically, psychologically wired to make sure we are safe first. In most cases, that's what that person is doing. They're trying to get their commission. And again, doesn't mean the agency is bad, doesn't mean the product is bad, but it is a lens to operate through.
00:27:02 Gloria: And I also think for a small business owner, like they get swooped up in this, I need to work with this big agency. But it's like unless you're their top dog, unless you're Coca-Cola paying them 20 grand a month, you just kind of get the scraps, right? Because they're stringing you along, selling you promises, but then the person working on your account is a 21 year old graduate of college who has no experience.
00:27:21 Zach: And I think the other thing is like, you know, when you work with an agency, it's also helpful to know what your goals are. For us, I think it's important to know, like it's part of the conversation you had of like, what is working for your business? Right. So if you go in being like, nothing's working, they'll promise you the moon and you're going to feel like, anything is better than nothing. So you're more likely to sign and work with them even if you, but if you're not getting results like you wouldn't hire a plumber to fix your broken microwave.
00:27:47 Zach: But you go to an agency and say, I don't know what's broken, but you say you can fix it, even though your specialty may be X, Y, Z. And we don't even know if that's the specialty that I need. You're hiring somebody who may or may not fix it. Right. So for us, we're always looking at, yes, traffic leads and sales. But what's working now from a holistic perspective for us personally is understanding our costs. So I want to know, like, what can I actually pay to acquire a customer.
00:28:14 Zach: We do a promotion where we can pay about 50 to $60 to acquire someone as a low ticket buyer in our business. We have a $25 product. We can spend about $50 to get them to buy it and operates as a loss leader in our business, but we wouldn't know that if we didn't know our numbers. So know what you can pay for a customer. Also be asking your agency or yourself if you're not going to hire an agency, how am building relationships with my customers?
00:28:38 Zach: And I think sometimes we get really caught up in like the, you know, business is built on relationships and you know, you got to build good rapport with your customers and people have to like you and your brand. What it comes down to is, in my opinion, are you talking to people frequently, your audience, are you giving them value, whether that be coupons or actual information about your industry is irrelevant to me. Are you delivering something that your industry perceives as valuable?
00:29:05 Zach: And then are you building a reputable brand? And to me, a reputable brand is about consistency and just a quick little asterisk consistency is not showing up at 100% every day. It's showing up every day. Whether you get 5% of your tasks done or 120% of your to be list done, you add things on because you're just so efficient. We've all had those days. That's not relevant. It's are you showing up consistently? And to get even more granular? Are you showing up consistently where you're seeing the ROI?
00:29:31 Zach: So if you're seeing your ROI on Instagram, and you come into work every day, and you're like, I just don't have it in me, I'm going to hit my 20% of my students is going to get done. But that 20% of the deal is like Facebook, email, tell a friend, send a postcard. And like none of those things are getting you sales. That's not consistency. That's busy. Right. So if you do these three things, if you are understanding what you can pay to to get a customer or lead, building a relationship with those people through consistency and by as a byproduct, building a reputable brand, that's what's going to help you grow.
00:30:07 Zach: And I do just want to say one quick thing and then I'll be be quiet so you can talk to me and ask me. But reputable brand to me is not you don't need to have the brand recognition of like synergy kombucha or poppy soda or, you know, like you don't need that. It's not about having the magic spoon logo and box that you see it at the store and you go, that's magic spoon. Right. It's not about that. It's about do you have good back end customer service?
00:30:36 Zach: When someone has a bad experience with you, do you fix it? When someone has a great experience with you, do you shout it out? When you post, are you posting random stuff all over the place or do you have at least a brand color, right? No one's expecting you to open your business on a Monday and be a brand designer on Friday. No one's expecting that. Your brand can evolve with you. And we've gone through evolutions of our brand where we've worked with designers and copywriters and we've gone through evolutions of our brand where we're trying new colors and new products and we don't hire anyone.
00:31:07 Zach: And guess what? Most of it works because for the previous two, we know what we can spend to get a lead in. We know what we can pay to acquire a customer and we're building relationships. So even if I throw something out, that's lackluster relationship supersedes product copy and creative 80% of the time. If somebody knows I'm great and I release a new product and it's a total dud, guess who's going to buy it. You're loyal customers. You release a new offer. Your customers are the ones who are going to buy it.
00:31:34 Zach: So if you are asking, you know, just to tie it into the agency conversation, I would be asking my agency, like, how much do we anticipate in this niche that we're going to pay to acquire a customer? How are we building long term awareness and relationship with our customers? How does this serve the overall growth of the brand as we do whatever you're hiring them for? Email, social ads doesn't matter. The question needs to be how is this growing a holistic business? And that's the lens that I want to come through when I'm having the conversation, I want to have very tangible questions.
00:32:09 Zach: I don't want to hear, oh yeah, we can double your Instagram and we'll get you tons of subscribers and you're gonna be so profitable. 2X ROAS on ads. Like, well, what is it 2X ROAS? What's the cost per acquisition? What are you anticipating my average order value is, right? And sorry, I know I keep saying I'm gonna be quiet. One more thing, know your numbers going into an agency sales call. Because if I go into a call and they're promising me the world, but I haven't given them any numbers, huge red flag.
00:32:34 Zach: I can give them various specifics and they can feedback to me. Hey, based on your industry and your numbers, this is what we can expect. When we do a call with people who say, how much should I spend? I ask them, what is your industry? What is your cost per acquisition? How do you convert? What do your numbers look like? If I don't have those numbers, anything that I offer is a pipe dream. That's just the reality. I can say like, hey, typically we see this, but I'm basing it on typical and everyone is a typical because every business is unique. Okay, now I'm going to stop talking.
00:33:04 Gloria: Yeah, I mean, there's so much gold in there. I do think you said some very, like if I could rewind, just listen to this episode. But what you said is like one person doing all the things is not good. It means that they're an expert in none of them. Anyone that wants you to sign right away into a contract, that's not good either because usually good people are booked, especially if you have ongoing work with them.
00:33:26 Gloria: Another thing I want to touch on is like, I think we're entering into an era where like people have been burned out by agencies. And so because they wanted this quick fix, because we're overwhelmed, right? And now they're realizing like, wow, there is some empowerment or some benefit to doing the hard work of learning how to do my own ads or learning how to do my own PR, which traditionally was like, no, you relinquish it to an agency.
00:33:49 Gloria: And so we can look at it as like, oh, it's just going to be more time or we can paint a picture of like, well, that's actually empowering because then I get to know more about my business and I get to have that filter, that curation muscle that's going to help me in all decision making. Because that's what it is. It comes down to a CEO making decisions. And we can't make good decisions if we don't have the experience to test different things. So I think there's definitely another way we can reframe the question.
00:34:14 Gloria: So I love that. I love how both of us, obviously, I'm not an agency, you are. But the whole ethos of what we're talking about is giving power back to the business owner instead of being like, just throw money to solve the problem because it never does. No one cares about your business as much as you do. No one's going to care about your business more than you do. Is there anything else that you want to leave our audiences with now that we do see a shift in consumer behavior? You know, just people are more skeptical.
00:34:38 Zach: The thing that I would say is the biggest thing that I can offer is most people get into business because they want something, they want more freedom, they want more finance, they want more of something and you don't get more overnight. You may see growth. You may see expansion, but most people have a definition of more. And a lot of people say like, I want more, I more freedom, I want more time, I want more of this.
00:35:06 Zach: Define what that looks like for you and have a realistic conversation. I'm not saying don't set big goals, but it's like, if you're like, I want to run a million dollar business, you're not going to do that in two weeks. Prove me wrong. That would make me, that would make my day. But most people are not going to start a million dollar brand in two weeks. And yet we consider our decisions through the lens of, but I want to be a million dollar business. And it's like, yes, and?
00:35:31 Zach: Also have to have the conversation of where are you now and where does that take you? Because for most people, a million dollar brand is a multi-year commitment. Great. Knowing that you know, you're in a marathon, not a sprint, and you don't have to make these split second game time decisions. And a lot of business owners I work with, everything feels like a split second game time decision, right?
00:35:54 Zach: Whether you post on Instagram or not, it's not going to make or break you. Whether you hire the agency or not, it's not going to make or break you. Most decisions are not as big deal as you think, whether it's a yes or a no. And ultimately, knowing that you're in the marathon, you get to play the long game. So treat your first customer like they're going to be here for 10 years. Treat your 10th customer like they're going to be here for 10 years.
00:36:18 Zach: Build relationships and play the long game. Be a good person. Have a good company, create great products. And if you just lean into that, I'm not saying that good products will sell without good marketing. What I am saying is good marketing will not outperform bad customer experience and bad product, right? Eventually that will catch up to you. So focus on what you can control and play the long game. You don't have to be the marketer who has every viral reel or reel go viral every time you post, but you do have to post a reel to go viral and knowing that creates a lot of space.
00:36:55 Zach: So the way that I look at this is like to be really candid, my goal is to retire 50. I don't don't really want to work past 50. And I know that's like a privileged place to come from. built a business. I've got some benefits and you know, but I'm making decisions from, hey, I'm going to do this for the next 20 years, right? I'm 31. So if I retire at 50, I've got another 20 years. I'm not making decisions from what makes me a thousand dollars tomorrow. I'm making decisions from I'm going to be doing this in 15 years.
00:37:21 Zach: What sets us up for success for 15 more years. And when you come from that place of this is not a flash in the pan. This is not how do I make a million dollars in Q4 2024 holiday season? It's what am I doing to create long term value and growth of the business? A lot of decisions get a lot easier to me.
00:37:40 Gloria: Yeah. And taking long form approach will always make you a winner because you always win in the long term. So that's so good. This has been such a breath of fresh air. I think it's a conversation that not many people have. And I'm so glad that to have this conversation with someone who actually is an agency owner center, just me talking about all the things you've given us so much to think about when we think about agencies, how to reframe our relationship, working with one, when to hire one.
00:38:05 Gloria: And it's been so honest and authentic. And that's why, you know, we're friends because we're really about supporting the everyday small business. How can people find you and learn more about you?
00:38:15 Zach: Yeah. If you want to find out more, you can follow me over on Instagram @ZachSpuckler, Z-A-C-H -S-P-U-C-K-L-E-R. Or you can visit my website, heartsoulhustle.com and check anything out there.
00:38:28 Gloria: Check out his ads bootcamp. It's amazing.
00:38:32 Zach: Thank you.
00:38:33 Gloria: Thank you.