Episode 10: What a Tech + Business Journalist Wants in a Pitch, Follow Up, and Interview Subject with Suman Bhattacharyya
Have you ever wondered what technology and business reporters at top-tier outlets look for in an interview? Do you know what they look for in a pitch or how they want to be followed up with, if at all?
When it comes to small business PR, it's all about making sure that you can get through to the journalists, so it is important that you know the answers to these questions! In today's episode, you will hear from a journalist about whether or not you should pitch to more than one journalist at the same publication.
Luckily for you, I have an incredible journalist, Suman Bhattacharyya, joining me in this episode to answer all of the questions I’m sure you are dying to ask!
Suman Bhattacharyya is a journalist focused on technology and financial services, including digital banking, payments, investing, and insurance. His work has appeared in The Wall Street Journal, Protocol, and Digiday, and he is a regular contributor to industry publications, including Banking Dive, FinLedger, and Tearsheet.
This conversation is packed with really helpful information for any small business owner that is looking to create relationships with journalists and land a story.
Topics We Cover in This Episode:
Tips for avoiding errors in a pitch
The benefit of having a pre-existing relationship with a journalist
What makes a good pitch and story
Why you shouldn’t be using buzzwords
Whether or not media kits are necessary
How to follow up and when you should
Why you need to get creative to build relationships
I learned so much from talking to Suman throughout this conversation, so I hope you did while listening.
It’s really important to be informed when it comes to what journalists are looking for and what they avoid. Those details can be the difference between getting a response and not getting a response!
Remember, have the confidence to continually work on your story and pitch. Don’t get discouraged if you’re not getting a reply right away! If you need help with your pitch or connecting with media contacts, make sure you check out all of the resources I have for you linked below like my Masterclass, Facebook group, and PR Starter Pack!!
Resources Mentioned:
Watch the #1 PR Masterclass to help you land a media feature in the next 30 days www.gloriachoupr.com/masterclass
Join the SmallBiz PR Facebook group to get access to Gloria and guest experts every week: www.getfeaturednow.com
Unlock 40,000 media contacts and proven pitch templates for every industry to get featured with ease at www.prstarterpack.com
Follow Suman on Twitter: www.twitter.com/newsient
Connect with Suman on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/suman-bhattacharyya-011932126/
Additional Resources:
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Transcript
Speaker1: [00:00:00] Have you ever wondered what a technology and business reporter at some of the most top-tier outlets, such as a Wall Street Journal looks for in an interview? What they want to see in a pitch and how they feel about follow ups, then my friends, you're not going to want to miss this episode. Hey, friends, I'm Gloria Chou, small business PR expert, award winning pitch writer and your unofficial hype woman. Nothing makes me happier than seeing people get the recognition they deserve. And that starts with feeling more confident to go bigger with your message, because let's be honest, we simply cannot make the impact. We're here to make by hiding behind the scenes. So on this podcast, I will share with you the untraditional yet proven strategies for PR marketing and creating more opportunity in your business. If you are ready to take control of your narrative and be your most unapologetic and confident self, you're in the right place. This is the Small Business PR podcast. All right, everyone, I am so excited for today's episode. This one is one that so many people ask me about, and I know that when it comes to small business PR, it's all about making sure that you can get through to the journalists, right? They are the gatekeepers. And I'm so excited that today we have an incredible journalist with so much experience here actually answering the questions we're dying to ask him. So without further ado, welcome to the show, Suman Bhattacharyya. Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker2: [00:01:28] Thanks for having me.
Speaker1: [00:01:29] So can you tell all the listeners a little bit about where you are now and the places and publications where you've worked and reported for?
Speaker2: [00:01:37] So right now I work as an independent journalist. I report about things that are technology related. Some of them involve financial services, some of them not. I also delve into topics around retail and adjacent topics like insurance and things that, you know, may not be connected to financial services. But then I discover, Ah, I've been branching out more towards broader technology topics, which I find has been really great because it reinforces everything I learned in financial services. So I work across many different publications from financial trade publications with examples like tear sheet banking, Dove Fin Ledger or broader publications and publications that have different different audience reaches, such as The Wall Street Journal or Glossy.
Speaker1: [00:02:27] That's awesome, I love that you have such a diverse and wealth of experience, so the first things first I want to ask you kind of a crazy question is you get pitches all day, every day. What is the craziest, funniest or just flat out worst pitch you've ever received? Let's start with that one.
Speaker2: [00:02:42] So this is a time when I was a financial technology reporter working for an outlet as a dedicated resource, and I received a pitch that was to put it diplomatically relating to sanitary technology. And, you know, you try to have some empathy for the person on the other end. They probably have a lot of pitches to send. And, you know, I'm sure that that it was sent with, you know, no ill will in mind, but it was just completely off. And and then there's just I've gotten pitches for things that I can't really, you know, easily discuss in On the Record podcast that they were just like things that were kind of far outside of the realm of what I write about. And you know, the lesson is that like. It try to always pay attention to what the person writes about and get a sense like, is it something that's going to resonate or not? Otherwise, it's just a matter of, you know, they're just not going to pay attention to your pitches.
Speaker1: [00:03:42] And what about what about like just some like really rookie mistakes like spelling errors or getting your name wrong? Do you get that a lot?
Speaker2: [00:03:50] I've been called Susan before.
Speaker1: [00:03:52] Yeah, so that's like a hard no, right? Do you keep reading after that?
Speaker2: [00:03:58] I try to, but it's like it's kind of like, oh, well, didn't they can google my name and say, it's right, so right. You know, I think that, you know, little things like that, you know, just try to check, check to make sure that when you're cutting and pasting the pitch somewhere else that the person's name you send it to last was not in their right. I remember that it was sent to a fellow named Phil. Actually know who Phil is. So it's like, it's like, OK, I know. I think I know where this this, this, this messaging ended up. So, so it's not a good idea.
Speaker1: [00:04:37] So did Phil. This is another question is like maybe Phil is your colleague? Is it OK to pitch to two different people at the same publication?
Speaker2: [00:04:46] I think it's OK. I mean, people are busy, not everybody has the time to respond to every pitch, sometimes, certainly in my realm, once I've got a lot of projects on the go, sometimes I can be a little bit enmeshed in those and I can't respond to new inquiries right away. And if it's something urgent that, say a colleague can pick up, then more than happy to have them do it. Other times you might want to have a specific journalist cover a topic. Maybe they have a connection to the topic. Maybe they know about that topic. Maybe you have a personal relationship with them that makes you trust them more than somebody you don't know. So if that's the case, then I would say try to keep the relationship with that person. But if it's something that that you need the message out there, I don't think it's bad to send it to more than one journalist on a team. I certainly am usually not offended by that.
Speaker1: [00:05:39] Well, you're probably one of the nicer journalists than you're kinder. Maybe because I know earlier in my career I've definitely gotten people's names mixed up and gotten their beats mixed up and people are like, I cover fashion, not tech, and you live and you learn, you know, I'm dating everyone else.
Speaker2: [00:05:56] I mean, people are human. They make mistakes. And I don't think that there's this. I'm not going to go to Twitter and posted everywhere. I don't think that's right, either. But, you know, just try to take the time as much as you can. And you know, like, I'm occasionally guilty of spelling people's names wrong, too. It happens. But the important thing is that that you just try because we get so many pitches a day and so many people want to get attention. It does make the extra taking. The extra effort to get the name spelled right is good.
Speaker1: [00:06:31] Yeah. So so you said that you received so many pitches a day. Can you give us like a number of like what that range is because we have no idea what your inbox looks like, I can imagine, but let it just paint a picture for us.
Speaker2: [00:06:43] I mean, there are some days that I might get 25 new emails, some pace. I might get 100 emails. It really depends on the time of the year or where the time of day. Sometimes I have to go through a glut of emails I get overnight because some people out on Pacific Coast are sending you messages overnight. Or maybe they're in London too. So I live on the East Coast, so it's it's a matter of me having to go through those. So it's different batches at different times of the day, but it can be sometimes hundreds of emails a day. So it's not. It's it's really hard to go through all of them and respond to each of them individually because I just wouldn't have time to do my own work if I responded to every single one. And I hate not responding to emails, but I feel like sometimes you just can't.
Speaker1: [00:07:30] Yeah, that's a really nice. You're a really nice journalist because I know a lot of journalists maybe don't care as much because they're just so focused on the story that they want to write about. But the fact that you at least try to respond to everyone that that's really nice of you to say that, and we appreciate that. So you touched on something earlier, which is, if you know, if you get an email from someone whose name you recognize, right, maybe it's someone you already have a preexisting relationship. Would you say that you're like ten times more likely to actually open that email?
Speaker2: [00:07:58] Yes. So like, for instance, if you send me an email, even if it's something completely unrelated, I'm more likely to open it. I won't probably respond to one hundred percent of the time I'll try to, but I'm more likely to to to interface with you if I know who you are or if I know we've spoken, we have a relationship.
Speaker1: [00:08:17] Yeah. So there's you know, for my community of small business entrepreneurs, they feel like the bar is so high that it's so hard to reach to get into an editor's inbox or someone like you. They need, you know, like a PR agency vouching for them. But I think for for me and my whole mission is it starts with a good story. It starts with a good pitch, right? That is the beginning of building that relationship. So can you tell me out of all of the information and people out there, what makes a story good? What do you look for in your one hundreds of emails that you get?
Speaker2: [00:08:49] You're not going to like the answer, I mean, it's it depends. But generally, I mean, this is kind of a cliche the five W's who, what, where and why and sometimes how I feel like you have to be able to answer those questions and you have to be able to position whatever it is that you're proposing in a bigger context, not just the context of your company, but how does this thing or issue affect a broader number of people? And can you demonstrate that that that's true? Maybe you have some numbers to back that up. It always helps to have that now. I know that a lot of research is kind of should be taken with a grain of salt, but sometimes you do have numbers to back that up and you can tell that, hey, I'm not just proposing something that affects me, I'm proposing something that affects a much bigger number of people. And if you can illustrate that to a journalist, I think that helps in kind of getting your foot in the door.
Speaker1: [00:09:46] One hundred percent. And that's one of the things I say in my CPR method, which stands for credibility, point of view and relevance and relevance is the most important thing. So, you know, you probably get pitches for software products, whatever. Can you give an example of like when a pitch is just not relevant and when it is, is it like if they start off by saying, Oh, I built this company, we're really cool like that tone already. It's just like not one that's serving the broader audience. Whereas if they say, Hey, we did studies on our on our users and here's the data, like maybe that's something that's more usable.
Speaker2: [00:10:18] I think that if it's not a very household name company, you need to rely more on other ways of trying to demonstrate that what you're proposing is in the journalist's wheelhouse and is relevant. If you are more of a household name company, the challenge becomes, Well, how is this new? Because I'll give you an example I recently got a pitch for a new product launch of a company, and I was going to pitch it to the editor. And the editor was like, We already covered that company recently. So is it worth taking all the resources of our team to cover this incremental product launch? Like, you know, that's equivalent to maybe the iPhone four or the iPhone four S, you know, like you need to be able to demonstrate the relevance. And I think how you do that is you look at the stories that this publication is written, you look at the writing style, maybe it is only an incremental launch, but maybe that's important. Then you need to be able to explain that that's important. And not just, Oh, we're launching this new thing because from a journalist perspective, you have to think that they're going to assume, Oh yeah, every company is doing that. So what makes you special?
Speaker1: [00:11:33] Yeah, I think that is the number one skill and kind of the mental hurdle that that founders have to go through because they're so focused on their product, it's their baby. So to be able to tie it to something else, like for for for them, it's obvious, it's important. But then for an outsider, it's like, well, it's not really important, right? So what you said about like data or research or something like that, those are some really great tips. Do you have any other great tips in terms of like if I'm just starting out and I don't know you, right? And I don't have like fancy board members? How else can I make my story? You said relevance is key. Maybe some data. Is there something else that I can do to make sure that I am ready before I send this pitch that it's a really good one?
Speaker2: [00:12:15] Take a look at the kinds of stories the person writes. Try to structure your pitch around the way they write a story and try to explain it to them in language that that resonates to them. Try to stay away from things like this is revolutionary. This is democratizing ABCD EFG like all these buzzwords, like they sound great in like these formal pitches, but journalists have heard them so many times it becomes so like almost turned off by them because just try to focus on what it is that's important. And why. Why are you writing this story? You can't answer that question, then you probably shouldn't be writing the story, but
Speaker1: [00:12:54] I love the word revolutionary and groundbreaking and democratizing. So now I got to find something else to use.
Speaker2: [00:13:00] There's maybe a way of explaining that in in a more concrete way that doesn't sound so buzzworthy. I worked in several newsrooms where there is a tendency to turn off from buzzwords. I'm not saying that they're not going to read your email. I'm just saying that's another reason why they might be skeptical.
Speaker1: [00:13:17] Got it, so if I put in the subject line. New product democratizes fintech with AI, it's like, really?
Speaker2: [00:13:25] Well, then I look at that and I go, Well, how does that? How is that different from all these other pitches? I need to find a way to stand out. This person might be getting hundreds of emails a day, maybe thousands of emails a day for all I know.
Speaker1: [00:13:37] Yeah. So being specific helps write in the subject line. So maybe it's like a certain. Maybe it's a certain demographic or certain type of user as opposed to democratizing the entire industry.
Speaker2: [00:13:47] Or maybe the story is about the how. Now have to be careful because a lot of trade publications tend to care a lot about the how how the sausage gets made is very, very interesting and relevant to trade publication audiences consumer publications. Maybe not so much unless it's something that the average consumer is going to be interested in. But if it's something very busy, if I take that to a general publication, they're going to be like, Well, that's not really relevant to our readers, so you need to be really careful about how you're pitching publication about how something gets done. Maybe super interesting to a specific type of publication, but others not.
Speaker1: [00:14:26] Right. And I say this too, is something I've learned from pitching, is that if you want to pitch to like a TechCrunch or, you know, BuzzFeed or something that has like 30 million people who are reading it, you need to be relevant to 30 million people. And a lot of times it's just not there. And so I actually recommend a lot of founders to pitch to kind of the industry outlets that understand what they're doing first. Do you agree with that? And can you talk a little bit more about like industry trade versus like a top tier, like a Wall Street Journal?
Speaker2: [00:14:55] So I think that the industry trades are very interesting for companies that want to want to connect with media initially. I think that if they've got something an interesting story from a business perspective that they can, they can deliver. The challenge, though, is, as you said, you know, for 30 million readers, how do you how do you demonstrate that it's relevant for a trade publication? Maybe you can. You can really study like who their readers are and try to get a sense who are their competitors? Were their readers? Do some research on the back end to try to figure out like how to position the pitch, but no industry trades are a good idea. I think that for a larger publication, it is demonstrating that resonance with a much larger audience and that can be challenging. That's challenging for journalists pitching them too, because the question you'll always get back from the editor is how is this relevant to our readership? And another one I've gotten is there's nothing new here. And that that is a common thread with I think that with a larger publication that's much more of a yes or no answer than, say, with the trade.
Speaker1: [00:16:12] Yeah. So in terms of thinking about that relevance, right, should we be thinking about kind of the effect on society or maybe women versus men or moms versus dads like, you know, our perspectives are attitude shifts like larger socioeconomic trends like things like that.
Speaker2: [00:16:26] Maybe if you're a journalist who writes about societal trends, that's enough of an interesting topic. But if you're in my realm and I'm a business journalist, primarily, it has to be in the realm of why is it relevant at a specific time and the currency of the time is important. And also, how does it link to what else has been going on in the industry?
Speaker1: [00:16:52] Got it. So maybe is that is that a big difference between the business news versus consumer news?
Speaker2: [00:16:58] Not necessarily, but I think that there are there are a lot of consumer news topics that are broader in nature. And generally a lot of the business publications I've written for have been more like, OK, so what's the new wrinkle here and how does it link to a broader narrative of a topic or evolution of a topic?
Speaker1: [00:17:18] Yeah. So you touched upon the things you look for in a good story, but what about specific things in an interview subject? Let's say you have three or four people who are all qualified to speak on a certain thing. How do you pick the one that you're going to interview?
Speaker2: [00:17:29] So sometimes I don't always pick the person I'm going to interview. Sometimes I I have to go on LinkedIn and I say I'd like to speak to Person X and that person is not available or the PR person hasn't make that person available. So, you know, you go through and you try to find the person that's closest to whatever it is that you're writing about. And sometimes that person is not the CEO or the CEO. So I mean, that person is like, maybe they're just a product product manager who understands something very granular and is very close to the customers.
Speaker1: [00:17:58] Thank you for that. So let's walk through the journey of the pitch, right? So let's say I sent a pitch on something and you respond and you say, OK, this is interesting. How what what does the process look like usually like next? Are there different layers of approvals? Would you actually answer yes and then interview someone a month later? What does it turnaround time
Speaker2: [00:18:15] If you're working horizontally across media outlets? You sometimes will send the pitch to one editor and you'll see how they they take to the idea. Maybe they have questions about it and then you have to go back. So the amount of time it takes to respond depends on perhaps how newsy the story is. If the story is kind of more broad but it's still relevant, it's not wrong that it's not necessarily a bad thing, that it will take the journalists some time to respond. Maybe they need to get responses from their editors and the response timing of editors varies varies by publication, varies by what their workload is like. So I think it's very much depending on the situation. But if the pitch is super targeted and those things about why and how or answered and it's done in a very clear way, I'm in a much better position to say yes or no. It's when things are just kind of like more amorphous and kind of like, I'm not sure that it takes longer time.
Speaker1: [00:19:23] Yeah, thank you for that. So, you know, I obviously recommend that the small business owners like they format their pitch with maybe three bullet points. So it's not a ton of text, right? And it's not this like autobiographical thing. Do you have any tips on like what you like to see in a pitch and what is just off putting to you? What is your biggest pet peeve?
Speaker2: [00:19:41] I mean, it's stuff like if it takes a long time to be able to get to the point of what the pitch is about, that's kind of hard because if you're busy, you can't necessarily read to the end. So this sounds kind of basic, but just putting putting what's really important at the top for me is important, different reporters probably going to have different preferences. Some reporters don't like pitches. I mean, it depends on each reporter. Personally, I like I like it short and to the point, and I want to be able to know what the story is about in the first few sentences that I read.
Speaker1: [00:20:15] Boom, I love that it's this five your attention because you're busy. Another question I got to ask all the time is I don't have a media kit ready like my website is not super fancy. Can you talk a little bit more about like media kits and all the kind of bells and whistles that people think they need to have?
Speaker2: [00:20:30] I don't really use media kits very often. I might consult them if I'm writing about a company and it's crunch time when I'm writing a story and I need to describe the company. And I need like basic information about when they were founded and who the founder is and getting the spellings of the names right. But all that information can be provided, so I don't in my work have as much use for those. The other question you had was about websites. Well, it is helpful to have a good website, then I need then I can easily look up information and it does give the company. An extra layer of credibility if they have a good website, but a good website can just be a simple website that is clearly articulating what the company does and looks professional. That's all
Speaker1: [00:21:13] Right. Yeah, because anyone can go and make a super, you know, amazing website with all the bells and whistles, and they don't have much substance to their pitch. What about the fact that they have been featured before or that they've gotten an award like will that help you? Should they put that in the pitch that they have been featured before?
Speaker2: [00:21:30] Usually, the award thing, depending on the topic, it's not as relevant. It's more like, how are they connected to the story? I think I would. I would care more about what the person has done than they've received an award, but that's just my personal view.
Speaker1: [00:21:44] And are you more impressed if in the first sentence or two they say they've been featured on X, Y and Z?
Speaker2: [00:21:50] Not necessarily. I mean, if they don't have a story for me, then what use is it of telling me that they've been featured in all these other publications
Speaker1: [00:22:01] So good that gives everybody hope is that anyone can pitch a good story and you don't need to have a lot of awards or fancy website or maybe even a fancy PR firm to to vouch for you.
Speaker2: [00:22:11] I mean, all that stuff with the awards is Google Bowl, so the journalists can find all lot information if you've gotten past the front door. Yeah. What's important is that the substance of the pitch is compelling enough for them to want to engage with you.
Speaker1: [00:22:26] So, so we talked a little bit about media kits. You said that's not really a thing anymore. Are there any best days and times to pitch or does it really not matter?
Speaker2: [00:22:37] There's no set time to send a pitch. I do feel like I look at my emails in the morning just because I know that there'll be stuff that was sent overnight. So in my case, I just the morning is always a good time because I know I'm like, I'm checking the middle of the day can kind of be a bit of a wash sometimes if you're busy working on various projects. And sometimes I'll look at my emails at the end of the day as well. But the morning is a great time to send new information because I'm always looking to refresh my box in the morning.
Speaker1: [00:23:09] Yeah, that's what I say as well. What about follow up, right? Because we all know it's in the follow up. So what is the right cadence? So many founders that I work with are so scared. They send an email and they say, Oh, this person's not interested, it's dead in the water. But maybe you didn't even read the email. So what is the right way to follow up without being a pet pest?
Speaker2: [00:23:28] It's hard. I mean, there's a way to there's a way to write an email that doesn't sound too aggressive. That's just asking, Hey, just checking in, and that's fine. But I do get emails from people that sound kind of aggressive and say, it's not like, Why haven't you written me? But I'd like to draw your attention to something I sent you two days ago. I'm not sure if you got like things like that's kind of compel me to respond. And if you're writing a journalist and you're telling and you're creating some kind of like an obligation for them to respond and that tone is showing in your follow up email, that's generally not a good thing, in my opinion.
Speaker1: [00:24:06] Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I also think following up after two days is a bit rushed. Like, give us some days, no.
Speaker2: [00:24:12] The only instance I would feel that that would be appropriate would be maybe if it was something that was really fast developing. But a lot of pitches are not fast developing. So following up in two days seems to me like not enough time. You know, maybe the person hasn't had a chance to read it. And if they're working with an editor or they haven't had a chance to really discuss it with the editor, and you have to think about pitches sometimes or discussed with editors on a piecemeal basis. But some editors have formal meetings with their reporters will look go through pitches, so there's some lead time involved in getting buy in on pitches and maybe the reporter needs to do more research to. So you always have to keep that in mind when you're sending a pitch. It's not wrong to send a follow up email. I just think that you just want to sound as as appreciative of the circumstances that they have and just try to, you know, just try to sound as polite as possible.
Speaker1: [00:25:09] Yeah, I agree. And that's what I say as well as is, you know, you can follow up, you know, maybe in the next week. Right? Would that would that be appropriate?
Speaker2: [00:25:19] Yeah, that's fine. Or maybe if you've got an ongoing relationship with them, you you'll send an email along the lines of the other things you're sending them. Maybe you're sending them an email about something else and you might just follow up about it quickly, too.
Speaker1: [00:25:33] What about using LinkedIn, especially for a business audience? Is it OK for them to connect with you on LinkedIn?
Speaker2: [00:25:40] Connecting on LinkedIn? Sometimes it's good. Sometimes it's not so good. It just depends on the circumstance. Sometimes that is helpful. I do use it to kind of understand if I need to reach a specific kind of a source. It is a very valuable resource I find just to get people who have specific experience. So I think it's a it's a useful tool.
Speaker1: [00:26:04] So it's important that there, you know, whoever is reaching out that their LinkedIn is is optimized because you're going to be looking at it.
Speaker2: [00:26:10] Yes, and no should be. I get the same thing. It should be clear. It should be easy to understand.
Speaker1: [00:26:16] Yeah. What is like a surprisingly good pitch that you receive from someone who is completely unknown, right? And no funding, whatever it is that actually resulted in a story and it actually really caused like a major impact not only for their business, but to be able for them to go bigger with their story.
Speaker2: [00:26:32] So I can't recall a story where it was. It was somebody that was completely unknown. I do have an example of a communications person who contacted me about a story idea, and it was very clear that they had studied the way I write stories, and they were describing a trend that involved the company that they were pitching and they were describing it, and they had information to suggest that it was broader than just about that company. And so that prompted me to talk to them and then talk to the company, and then I did all this other research. And I talked to other companies and it ended up being a really interesting feature story to work on. But it all started because the person pitching had kind of studied what I written and really had the pulse on what I was interested in. And I certainly really appreciated that.
Speaker1: [00:27:28] Yeah, that's do your research, right. So I have had cases where I've pitched somebody when I was still pitching for startups and, you know, the journalists didn't run the story, but then because of something happened in the news. Five months later, they wrote back and said, Hey, I need someone to interview. So is it true that you kind of keep things in your inbox? And if you are looking for an expert in that, you kind of go back and do a search and see,
Speaker2: [00:27:52] Sometimes it happens. Yes, if you if you have news breaking about something and then yeah, I'll sometimes scan my email to see if there's anybody that would be having that expertize that I could talk to or experience that was relevant. So the I use that as a resource, too.
Speaker1: [00:28:10] That's awesome. Yeah, because I always say like, put your name in the hat, you know, when I get a response right away. But the news is always changing, so you never know when your expertize might be relevant. Is there anything else you want to say to kind of the scrappy entrepreneur who was like, I know what I'm building is is really impactful, but I'm just so scared to pitch. I don't feel like I'm ready yet. Like, what do you have to? I mean, you've given us some great tips about relevance. And you know, all the other things, is there anything else from like a mindset perspective you want to share about, like pitching to journalists because a lot of people are just scared to pitch to journalists?
Speaker2: [00:28:40] I mean, you may want to get a colleague to look at it, get someone to look at it. I mean, I've done that before. Just get someone. Get another fresh set of eyes to look at your pitch just to see if you think the questions are answered. I think it's key, like especially if it's someone you don't know, you're making an assumption on what they're interested in. So it's probably a good idea to test that with somebody else, somebody you think maybe has a bit of that mindset. Maybe there's a colleague. Maybe there's someone else, you know in the industry that you can kind of like, cross-check with. I think that might be a good way to like, vet the pitch a little bit because sometimes I find that the pitches I get, you know, if they just send it to somebody else that they would maybe have a better go at it.
Speaker1: [00:29:24] Yeah, I mean, that's that's that's really good to know. So I mean, let the pitch do your research, all of those things. What about needing like someone to refer them to you? Does that help you at all? If you have someone who you wrote a story about and then they're like, Hey, I have another person for you, like, does that impress you much or not? Really?
Speaker2: [00:29:42] Referrals are always interesting because if you've already talked to somebody and you have a relationship with them and then they in turn refer you to somebody else, then that's always a good way of being introduced because, you know, they thought that that person would be an appropriate contact for you. So I think that the referral route is good, too.
Speaker1: [00:30:00] What about with these, you know, PR agencies? So obviously there's ones that are, you know, really good and there's ones that are not so good and charging a lot of money, right? And doing all all sorts of things. So is there really like if someone is employing like a very expensive agency? Is that more impressive or does not not really matter kind of what agency or how much they're paying?
Speaker2: [00:30:18] Or I mean, certainly there are a lot of agencies that are extremely good at what they do. And you can tell by the way, that the people they hire and the way that they go about their business. But certainly when it comes to looking at a story, what's really important is the substance. It's not like. How it came, I mean, an agency can still pitch you a story that's not relevant or it's just some of the same issues that somebody who's not an agency has to. So, you know, it's it's there's no harm in pitching somebody. And even if you don't have an agency, you can still pitch story.
Speaker1: [00:30:57] Yeah, I always say, like, we're all staying at home right now. No one's really going to events like, you're the expert, right? So if you cannot access access a pure agency, let's just cut that out and you pitch yourself right, you're saying that you don't necessarily need a PR agency to be able to say, OK, I'm going to read this pitch.
Speaker2: [00:31:15] Well, I think what's hard right now, especially since that we're not 100 percent back to pre-COVID circumstances, is that back in the day, journalists used to meet industry sources at events. Maybe it's or maybe they were just doing meet and greets and talking to people. There was no story expectation. But just like meet and greets with people just to understand what they do and then over time, if they develop a relationship with the journalist and there's a topic that kind of springs to relevance, then you might end up quoting that person. But it's a process. And right now, it's harder because people aren't meeting in person as much. So, you know, maybe one way would be just to. It's hard because it's hard to just send an email to somebody and say, I'd like ten minutes of your time unless there's a real important reason to to want to take their time. So I guess you have to be creative about how to build a relationship. Maybe it's going to a virtual event where you can have one on one interaction with the journalist. A really good forum for that is Clubhouse. And you could go to a clubhouse group and there are journalists sometimes in those groups and you can develop a relationship through the and they'll hear you ask your question and try to think about some creative ways you can recreate the physical event circumstance that used to be before the pandemic.
Speaker1: [00:32:38] Yeah, I mean, in ways it's there's pros and cons, right? So what you said is a disadvantage, but in a lot of ways, I feel like for a lot of the newer companies or kind of the solo founders that they have a chance now because they're not really competing with these other, more well-established people for the same rooms. It's just a matter of getting into your inbox, pitching a good story or maybe getting into your LinkedIn inbox because you know they don't need an invite to those fancy events or what have you.
Speaker2: [00:33:05] Yeah, I mean, a lot of the events that are available are not there's no like super high wall to get into them. You just participate. So there's other ways of getting a journalist attention than sending an email. It's a pitch. And when you combine the pitch with all these other things that you're doing, you're more likely to strike up a relationship if there's a reason to have one, or if the journalist feels like there's a reason to have one. So I feel like there's other things you do outside of the setting email that might help build the relationship.
Speaker1: [00:33:34] So you said, Clubhouse, is there anything else that they can do to build the relationship right now?
Speaker2: [00:33:39] Well, there are other events going on, there are events that are free. There are events that are not expensive that you can go on and interact with people. You never know who's listening. And what I like about some of those events is they are often very egalitarian with the way that they take questions like anyone can ask. I really find that helpful. And I go to some of them just because nowadays I can't go to. There aren't a lot of physical events anymore, so
Speaker1: [00:34:06] That's good to know that you can go and interact with the journalists and you don't necessarily need to know them or be introduced. And still, if you have a good question, you can still have that opportunity to build that relationship. So we're getting towards the end of the questions, but I do have a question about kind of press releases because you are a business journalist. So press releases are a big thing. I mean, I wrote one, I put you a story and then that ended up being a story. Can you talk to me a little bit more about press releases and how to kind of maximize that? Because I have people who are like, Oh, I need to send a press release for every little thing like you said about iPhone four or for us. So what is the what is a better way to use a press release and then to use that to build a relationship and to announce something?
Speaker2: [00:34:43] And the press releases are just I find them helpful if they're just like background. But a lot of journalists don't even do press release stories. And some of them, you send them a press release or you're like, Oh, you're sending this to 50000 people, I'm not going to look at it. So I guess the press release, if you're going to write one, it should be adhering to the same principles that I just described about a pitch. It should be clear it should illustrate the five W's. It should say why it's relevant. It should have all those things in it. But ideally you want to get to the journalist before you send them the press release. If you just fire a press release off, it's often too late for the journalists to be able to intervene because they might be like, Oh, well, this has already been written about how am I going to demonstrate the the justification for doing this story if you know a zillion other elements are covering it?
Speaker1: [00:35:38] Yes, and that's what I always say. I say, be strategic. Don't just fire it out without kind of seeing who might be interested in it. So how early? So, for example, if they want to to the press release to go live, you know, let's say September 1st, when should they start pitching that before it goes live to a journalist?
Speaker2: [00:35:56] I mean, there are some people who say they shouldn't pitch press releases, but if you are going to pitch a press release generally in the one or two weeks preceding probably fine, it's always it's always unfortunate to get a press release that's already really already out there. And then the PR person is like, This is already out there, and sometimes it's OK. Sometimes it's a broad enough topic that you can interview somebody, but sometimes it's it can be seen as too late, almost because if you're already sending the journalists the news that's out there, the less likely that some of them will cover it because they'll assume that it's not very differentiated or exclusive. So that's that's the danger of just sending somebody a press release.
Speaker1: [00:36:39] Yeah, one hundred percent. That's why I always say be strategic with your press releases. This was such a good. I mean, I learned so much as well, and I really enjoyed working with you. I mean, I remember back in the day when I used to pitch for fintech and you were always so nice and I learned a lot about kind of the process from working with you and taking that story, you know, until it got published and it was using a press release and it was around an announcement. But you know what is for you like? What is the most inspiring thing about working as a journalist?
Speaker2: [00:37:07] I guess the ability to learn about things all the time that that's really keeps me motivated and also like understanding how different things that are not connected actually are. So just the constant learning is really very, very, very stimulating.
Speaker1: [00:37:25] So, you know, this podcast is all about helping people gain the confidence right to put themselves out there without needing all the fancy bells and whistles. So can you give us an example of when you were scared to pitch or advocate for yourself, but you did it anyways?
Speaker2: [00:37:40] I mean, there was a recent pitch I did where I pitched a story idea and the editor had questions, and if I was doubting myself, I wouldn't have responded with with information back. So it was the back and forth. It was a bit of a ping pong with the editor where the editor was like, OK, I get that. But what about this other thing? Have you thought about that? And then I went back and I did research, I did interviews, and then eventually that pitch was accepted. But if I didn't have the confidence to to go back and take the feedback and go, OK, well, I'm going to provide the information and just keep persisting, then I would never have been able to get that pitch approved. So I think just. Continually. Continually working on the story idea without getting discouraged by skeptical feedback is is is worthwhile. So so that was one example where I just kept, I kept on it.
Speaker1: [00:38:45] And I imagine this is kind of a top tier publication.
Speaker2: [00:38:48] Yeah, it was that was that was that was really good because it was a way of like understanding, understanding how the Ed Wood would look at something and and just getting getting a sense of like what's important in the bigger sphere to them. So but of course, just having the confidence to continually find the information and correspond like somebody who who would be discouraged would be like at the first sight of maybe this is not relevant, they would stop working on it.
Speaker1: [00:39:20] Um, yeah, I'm so glad you went for it, so now with all the news, you know, things are changing. You have so many different things you can cover. What's interesting to you just as a journalist, like, what are the stories that you're really interested in right now, personally?
Speaker2: [00:39:33] I mean, that's a tough one because I read about different topics, but for me in like financial services, it's always like, how do you provide financial services to people who are disadvantaged or have barriers to adoption in some way or another? I always find that interesting. And other technology stories, it's it's it's basically I'm very interested in like how how things are done and how a process evolves. So, you know, how does how does somebody build something that's interesting to me? So I would say in general, like underserved segments of the population and how the source gets made?
Speaker1: [00:40:13] I love it. Thank you so much for your time. How can our audiences find you and follow you and read and support your stories? Or can they find you online?
Speaker2: [00:40:22] I am on LinkedIn and Twitter. I am probably more active on LinkedIn than Twitter, but I use both.
Speaker1: [00:40:28] Nice. Ok. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. You've given us so much wisdom and actionable tips, especially for the business tech audience. Thank you so much for being here and I look forward to having you back on the show one day.
Speaker2: [00:40:43] Great. Well, thank you for the opportunity.
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